City Climate Corner

Europe Cities Overview with ICLEI Europe

Episode Summary

Building off of Abby's recent sustainability tour of several European cities, we interview Holger Robrecht, Deputy Regional Director of Sustainable Resources, Climate and Resilience for ICLEI Europe. We learn some similarities and differences to how European cities pursue climate action and sustainability, hear about a terrific success around wood building construction, and get some powerful insight for cities everywhere.

Episode Notes

Building off of Abby's recent sustainability tour of several European cities, we interview Holger Robrecht, Deputy Regional Director of Sustainable Resources, Climate and Resilience for ICLEI Europe. We learn some similarities and differences to how European cities pursue climate action and sustainability, hear about a terrific success around wood building construction, and get some powerful insight for cities everywhere.

Episode Transcription


Abby Finis  00:02

Cities produce more than sixty percent of global greenhouse gas emissions. Big cities get a lot of attention, but most household emissions in the US actually come from communities outside urban cores, making them critical players in climate mitigation and climate justice. City Climate Corner explores how these small- and mid-sized cities are tackling climate change and moving toward an equitable and sustainable future. I'm Abby Finis.

Larry Kraft  00:23

And, I'm Larry Kraft. We're co-hosts for City Climate Corner. Hey, Abby. 

Abby Finis  00:31

Hey, Larry.

Larry Kraft  00:33

So today, I think is going to be our first Europe episode. Why are we doing an episode about Europe?

Abby Finis  00:39

Well, if you are not caught up on our past episodes, I took a little trip over to Europe. So I went to the Netherlands, and Germany and Spain to check out some work that different cities are doing around climate action. And today we are speaking with folks from ICLEI Europe, one of the cities that I visited was Freiburg, which happens to be the headquarters for ICLEI Europe.

Larry Kraft  01:06

And, I have to say Abby I loved this was certainly a work related trip. But it was also kind of a vacation-y thing you're planning. And, I just love that for a vacation-y thing you're out looking at green infrastructure and marveling at water squares and all this kind of stuff.

Abby Finis  01:26

Yeah, what a nerd. No, it was a pretty good adventure and a good way to see at least this part of Europe. I met up with my brother in Rotterdam. And we just took the train from city to city. And while we were in those cities, we pretty much used bike and transit and a lot of walking. So we got in our steps. I think my watch was pretty disappointed in me when I came back here. So it was a really fun way to see these cities. And I got to speak with folks in pretty much all of the cities that I went to, and then we'll do some interviews with several of them.

Larry Kraft  02:03

This first one though, is with ICLEI, or in the US ICLEI who's been a partner of ours throughout the podcast. They helped a lot as well with this with making connections and stuff, right?

Abby Finis  02:15

Yeah, I was very fortunate to make the connection with ICLEI Europe. Big thank you to Marcel there who not only connected me with people within ICLEI, but also in other cities. It was really great to be able to meet up with folks there and really appreciate them taking the time. I had a couple connections in Freiburg and if you've listened before, I love the city of Freiburg. This conversation is more general about some of the work that ICLEI is doing around Europe. And then we'll have another one specifically on Freiburg.

Larry Kraft  02:47

Yeah, that's right. I really enjoyed talking to Holger, he seems to have such an interesting view of having seen so much over the past number of years in Europe.

Abby Finis  02:57

Yeah. And it's timely too. I was there in early June. And since that time, there's been unrelenting heat waves that have been hitting that part of Europe as well.

Larry Kraft  03:08

Right. Yeah. And he talks a bit about that. 

Abby Finis  03:11

Let's give it a listen. 

Larry Kraft  03:12

Let's do it.

Start of interview

Abby Finis  03:16

Today we're speaking with Holger Robrecht, who is the Deputy Regional Director of sustainable resources, climate and resilience with ICLEI Europe. Welcome to City Climate Corner. Can we start by having you introduce yourself?

Holger Robrecht  03:29

Well, you started off by telling my name. I'm a spatial planner that is of interest from background, and for more than 30 years, I've been working in the area of environmental issues related to urban development. And actually 25 years back now, I joined ICLEI Europe for this exactly that reason to work on environmental management and sustainability management issues in an urban context. 

Holger Robrecht  03:59

Meanwhile, of course, my area of work has expanded a little bit. And you outlined what my team is working on. We do work with all the natural resource management aspects of sustainable urban development. I potentially should say that ICLEI is a global association of local governments that strive to improve global sustainability conditions by their community of local action. Community hints at the fact that we are a network and that our cities like to work together. And the understanding of improving global sustainability conditions translates into the motto, think globally, act locally, which essentially is an ICLEI motto.

Abby Finis  04:47

We were just speaking before we started recording and I think it's important for context setting and why we're all doing this work. But when I was visiting in Freiburg and speaking with you, you know, shortly thereafter, you were going to go on holiday. And we just ask you about your holiday and how it was. Can you tell us about that and why that context is important maybe for not just our conversation, but also the work that we are all doing?

Holger Robrecht  05:10

Well, effectively, when we go for holidays, we find ourselves in situations that present the state of environment very immediately to us. And it connects very much also, our habits, our consumption habits and our lifestyle with the environmental effects that we cause. In my holidays, I was exposed to a heatwave and wildfires. I think this is what in European context, people will experience by and large wherever they go, because we have wildfires in all parts of Europe in this year. Last year, potentially people could have experienced floods everywhere because we had severe rainfalls in major parts of Europe. And step by step, we start to understand that we cause climate change by the way that we live.

ICLEI Europe background

Larry Kraft  06:04

I really appreciate that perspective. As you're seeing the wildfires and droughts there reminds us that last summer, we were experiencing wildfires around here and I actually had my holiday canceled because where I was going was subjected to wildfire and smoke. But can we shift? And can you provide us a bit of background on ICLEI Europe and how it came to be?

Holger Robrecht  06:27

Yeah, ICLEI Europe is a baby of course of ICLEI world. This baby is now 30 years old. It was launched in 1992. And it followed the foundation of ICLEI local governments for sustainability. By then it was ICLEI the International Council for local environmental initiatives which unfolds the acronym to you. But in 2003, we have turned into an organization that is focusing on all the aspects of sustainable urban development. 

Holger Robrecht  07:00

ICLEI was founded prior to the Rio Summit on Environment and Development. In that summit, the states of the world agreed on the what is called the real agenda, and that we can call the foundational document for the word tackling the challenges of a sustainable development. There is a chapter 28 in there. And this chapter 28 says that we need to have local agendas. That it is the local administrations and local authorities that need to develop in a participatory manner local agendas in order to address issues like climate protection, then, and sustainable development and ensure that we have local agenda action plans established in order to tackle the challenges for the future. 

Holger Robrecht  07:54

And this is why ICLEI was founded because we actually, cities met at the UN premises in New York, felt that there was a need for a network and organization that takes care of that mandate. And that was the foundation of ICLEI and two years later ICLEI was launching the office in Europe. Meanwhile, we have I believe, 16 or 17 Secretariat around the world, always with a particular focus.

Larry Kraft  08:24

And we're quite familiar with in the US, we would call it ICLEI or no, ICLEI. So you talk about sustainability being a big focus. And we've seen that over time that's evolved or become even more of a focus on climate and resilience. What are some of the programs that are offered to help cities in Europe implement action?

Holger Robrecht  08:47

What if I can correct you climate protection was one of the two founding pillars of ICLEI. This was in the real agenda. So it was climate protection, and it was local agenda 21. The resilience aspect or climate adaptation aspect that came into the picture only around 2006-2008 when the global community understood that we are already experiencing climate change, and whereas we need to continue our ambitions and activities to halt climate change. We also need to get prepared for the consequences that we cannot avoid anymore. And then climate adaptation came into the international agenda, but also many of our members have requested ICLEI to work on climate adaptation. And that evolved into in a broader sense a resilience activity. As we also understood that shocks and stresses are not only coming from climate change, but still it is obviously a very important focus of the resilience agenda. 

Holger Robrecht  09:57

ICLEI works on all aspects of sustainable urban development. So all the urban development sectors that you could think of always have, of course, an impact. We look at, in a broader sense in an integrated manner at urban development from a sustainability angle. And more narrowly in my team with the responsibilities, sustainable resources, climate and resilience, we deal with the natural resource management aspects of urban development, that is very much an infrastructure related activity. Because this is where basically, we create the biggest impact on the natural resources. And there is a big need for that. We understand if we look just one day back, when we got the news that we have Overshoot Day 2022, that was exactly yesterday, the day that we overshoot our resources available for our lifestyle in 2022. That is a task.

Natural resources

Larry Kraft  11:03

When you say natural resources, let's go one level below that. What do you specifically mean?

Holger Robrecht  11:10

Well, our life is based definitely on natural resources. It cannot get without. Whatever we do, and if we want to satisfy our human needs. And this is one of the tasks of local governments to offer services, hopefully efficient services, high quality services, in order to cater for our demands and human needs. Then we basically, always use natural resources and turn that into some kind of good for us, it might be a product, it might be a service. Now we talk about over the internet, we use energy, we have facilities that have had to be produced, and they are all produced by using natural material and natural resources. And we always have an impact. 

Holger Robrecht  11:56

That is exactly the point also for urban development. When we decide to build infrastructures, we decide to interfere with nature. We like it or not, that's the case, either in the sense that we use nature in order to feed ourselves or think of water, think of clean air, think of the energy that we use, think of the food that we have, hopefully everyday and all of us, it should be clean, it should be of good quality. This is where and how we use nature. And of course, we release emissions into nature. We just talked about climate. And this is part of it that we release CO2 emissions and other climate relevant material substances emissions into nature. 

Holger Robrecht  12:43

We can talk about the same thing when looking at waste, material waste, when we excavate material in order to produce cement for roads or buildings. This is where always natural resources come into the picture. And we can have we have decisions we can decide to do this or that way. And I hinted at the Overshoot Day yesterday, of course, we can decide to be very material heavy, or we can decide to be more smart and intelligent and more sustainably oriented.

Larry Kraft  13:19

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ICLEI Europe Programs

Larry Kraft  13:34

I'm familiar with some of the programs that ICLEI in the US offers, how do you work with cities? Is there technical assistance you provide? Peer to peer connections? How do you work with them?

Holger Robrecht  13:46

All of it. ICLEI is a strange animal. We are, as I said a network of cities. We are a political actor. We do advocate for better working conditions and framework conditions for cities to do their work within and their work within is always with a view to improving the Sustainable Development conditions as I said in the beginning. So we do act in a multilateral governance framework. We act with all the relevant institutions in Europe we have of course the European Union related institutions but then there is many others. The EU investment banks for example, the private sector, other Federation's are the associations that all help to think of the best way to make Europe a climate neutral continent by 2050. But how would that work? It only can work if it goes through the implementation of projects, infrastructures, infrastructure development at city level, and here, our attention turns to give support to cities to the best of our knowledge ability and expertise to help improving and adapting and if you wish, so make their structures resilient, in order to be able then to send that challenge to become climate neutral or climate resilient in the next foreseeable future. 

Holger Robrecht  15:15

That is helping them with their processes and procedures that is more systemic. It is more institutional, it addresses the management sphere. It is very technically my team, I have 35 people that are technical experts in their doings. There is architects, there is infrastructure people, there is energy people. I have water engineers in my team. And we are able and do offer direct services to cities in order to help improve their projects. Of course, they will not give an assignment contract to ICLEI to do the intervention, this is other companies doing that. But we can help to set up the criteria, we can help to orientate the projects in a way that they fit to the sustainability and climate ambitions. The cities, the city council's but also the communities would have. So that is the second layer. We do that in technical service assistance, as you say, but also we do offer numerous different types of platforms, different formats, for them to exchange peer to peer exchange, we organize larger and smaller type of events. 

Holger Robrecht  16:26

We do offer trainings on the ground. But we also have online capacity development programs, I just named one urban by nature, which is an online capacity development program, that cities but also other professionals can use around the world to understand how nature based solutions and green infrastructure can help the implementation of sustainable development. So there is numerous types. And it goes up to the point that we engage in international but also European and national standardization to turn innovative solutions that we develop together with partners in research and innovation projects into solutions that can be picked up replicated mainstreamed in other cities and towns in Europe, but also globally.


Abby Finis  17:20

Could you tell us about some of the development standards? And I think maybe this relates back to the multi levels of governments that are involved, and you have the standards that are set that then can be implemented down at the local level. And how does that all work together?

Holger Robrecht  17:37

Essentially, of course, standardization is an interesting field. And often I'm asked why do you engage in standard development. And I should say that this is really a formal standard. So we do work with the international and European standardization organizations like ISO, IEC, ITU, and the European level Cen, CENELEC, and NC which are always built from the perspective of international trade. This is the whole idea of standardization, that solutions can actually be brought to market that can be taken up in different regional markets without hindrances. So that is the original idea. 

Holger Robrecht  18:20

But in recent years, and definitely latest with the London declaration of the international standardization organizations that basically take a view that standards, international standards need to support the Paris Agreement and our climate ambitions, the whole standardization of word turns. And I would always say that this is a true game changer, because the logic is not any more just to support international markets or international trade. But it takes a political view to support international trade in the context of supporting the Paris Agreement and our below two degrees ambitions. This is a game changer, in my view. 

Holger Robrecht  19:05

So what we do and ICLEI started this work 10 years back in 2012, with an engagement in an ISO committee that is called Sustainable Cities and Communities. We have collated the experiences and practices of cities, and brought these to the attention of the international standardization bodies, the technical committees that we engage with. We basically bring to the attention of international standardization that there is a practice at local level that can be turned into an international standard because it's actually cutting edge. It's high quality and sustainability work. 

Holger Robrecht  19:47

This I believe truly has changed the quality and also the perspective of standards that by then only have been developed from the idea of what is the best technical solution that can be brought to market. So now we have a demand perspective rather than a supply perspective, international standard development. And that is a second game changer. And the different types of standards that we do support management related to procedural standards that have to improve the management procedures in alignment with the idea that they need to support sustainable development. And then we have a language issue. And because local governments don't necessarily speak as a private sector partners, but in the international standards, we can create sort of a level playing field and a language that is reference for both sides. 

Holger Robrecht  20:43

At the end of the day, it's the public authorities that issue procurement processes, and refer to the international standards. And then things make sense. We also do engage in technical or technological standards, but not in the depths. More recently, for example, we have started to engage in standard development for what is called the local digital twin, which is decision support systems based on open data platforms that mirror the protocols in city arenas. This is the more technical but at the end of the day, it's always in support of the sustainability ambitions as I mentioned before.

Importance of cities

Abby Finis  21:26

I think that you laid out some areas where cities are really important and really important to be at the table and part of the conversation, as the world is looking to solutions. But why are cities such critical actors in and of themselves to implement climate action for resilience and mitigation?

Holger Robrecht  21:44

What we cannot do, they are not very relevant because they only occupied 2%, or not even 2% of the surface of planet Earth. But if we look at the 75% of GDP that is created in cities, and the 75 to I don't know, perhaps 80% of emissions created in cities, we understand that it is an issue, of course, for a long time we look at cities as part of the problem, but at the same time part of the solution, because that is also the space where innovation is created. We do have centers of excellence of knowledge in urban areas. And more and more, we see that there is clusters that develop in the knowledge, developing contexts that really create excellence. And this is depending to a certain extent, also on urban infrastructures and systems. 

Holger Robrecht  22:39

That's basically the reason why it is worthwhile to look at cities. There is a second part, which is a more political part, that often cities, city officials, and more and more particularly on some mayors, they engage in global policymaking, and they are hurt meanwhile. And they are very confident and they are very proud of the role that cities can play. And if you listen to UN officials, and if you listen to national governments you always hear it is the cities and towns that will make a difference. There is the place where we implement where we interfere with the systems that we have created. And this is where we invest at the end of the day, also the whole lot of money. 

Abby Finis  23:31

And city size, we talked about where you said small cities can be shiny giants. How important are smaller cities?

Holger Robrecht  23:41

Well, in my view, very, very important. For a long time in my professional life, I've been working with quite small cities. And I will always have experienced them as the ones that can move very quickly. You know, like a small boat, as opposed to a big tanker. They can drive experiments and I have often heard representatives of bigger cities that sometimes are seen to be the quality cities that can make a change or so. But they look at the small cities as their kind of laboratory. And if things work in cities like Vaxjo in Sweden, 75,000 inhabitants or so Louisbourg in Germany or others, they think, okay, we can try it out and scale it up at the level of a city of a size of London, also. So this is where the small city has definitely come into the picture. The bigger the city is, the more difficult it is also to get all the structures behind and the mandate to really implement things unless they have proven to be successful.

Success example (Växjö)

Holger Robrecht  24:51

Can you share with us a couple of examples where you've seen big success or big impact and in cities?

Holger Robrecht  25:00

I can give you one example, that is a very constructive example. I think about 12 years back in the city of Växjö, which I mentioned before, that one of my champions because I was working so closely with them for a long time, as part of a project that we established, then they have actually built a wooden high rise building in Växjö. So wooden buildings in Europe, somewhat difficult because of our history. We have many cities that burned down in the 19th century, because of big fires. And because of the fact that many buildings were wooden buildings. Then we learned that we need to change and get away from concrete and do something different with the material, but at the same time, we wanted to be highly energy efficient. 

Holger Robrecht  25:51

And then Växjö has then said, Okay, we go back to our roots and build something in wooden style, away from concrete, but high end, and definitely the level of technology that was to be achieved 10 years back, or 12 years back. So they thought of all the rules that they have to change, they thought of the security aspects necessary. And they shaped the material, so that it was sending all the higher rules that they had in Sweden, and they build a passive house that by then was definitely high end energy efficient. That was the first in Europe. Actually, in that moment others and other cities have looked at it and now you see in many other cities, also such buildings that are even bigger, that are more complex, but they basically live on the experience that actually has created. There are many other examples like this.

Larry Kraft  26:52

Can you the name of that city in Sweden? Can you spell it? I don't want to forget, because I would definitely not get it right.

Holger Robrecht  27:01

It's actually funny you say that because people from Växjö always make fun of the fact that non Swedes cannot really pronounce the name of the city. If you translate it, it's actually the way by the lake. So it's a V and then you have an A E combination in German home loud air, and then you have an x j and O V again.

Larry Kraft  27:30

I would have got that. 

Abby Finis  27:31

You would not have been able to spell that.

Larry Kraft  27:39

But I'm going to work on pronouncing it though.

Holger Robrecht  27:41

Yeah, let's be happy if people pronounce it like Vecchio, which it's more the Italian style,


Larry Kraft  27:48

I like the way by the lake that resonates with us here in Minnesota, we have lots of lakes and so it's a name. Well, what advice would you have for cities in Europe and really anywhere around the world that are in this time right now working to reduce emissions and adapt to some of the things we talked about before this changing planet?

Holger Robrecht  28:10

Start small and end up effective. So start wherever. It doesn't really matter, in my view, as long as you get started, because that seems to be the most difficult thing to do to just get going. And there is actually so much experience so many tools available that can help to structure processes that can help to prioritize that can help to identify the appropriate solution, be the technical, technological and nature base, the socially best solution. Or to access funding and financing, which is always a difficult thing. And the question, you'd be asked in the beginning, oh, how can we finance that? And who will pay for it and all the rest of it. 

Holger Robrecht  28:53

But, at the end of the day, I think it is the mindset, get it going. That is the most important. And it is not even important. If you start by a certain sector. You could start by the building sector housing, you could start by mobility, what is the opportunity available? I think that is very important because cities have their investment circles, they have their innovation circles, they have their development circles, and likewise, the private sector has circles to drive innovation, for example, and there is always a window of opportunity that opens exactly for that reason. Now, there is a political decision making process. There is a plan that has to be renewed. There is an infrastructure that needs renovation, use the opportunity as it appears. It will be good though to have a plan in the background. And this plan ICLEI can help to develop.

Larry Kraft  29:47

I like that. Reminds me of a phrase we have, don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good. 

Holger Robrecht  29:55


Larry Kraft  29:55

Get started. Take action. 

Holger Robrecht  29:57


Larry Kraft  29:58

And then learn

Abby Finis  30:00

Well, I really enjoyed speaking with you Holger. This was really, really great. So thank you for joining us.

Holger Robrecht  30:06

No, pleasure is on my side. It's lovely to talk to you. And I could go on forever.

Abby and Larry debrief

Larry Kraft  30:16

All right, Abby, what are your takeaways?

Abby Finis  30:19

Well, I just have so much appreciation for Holger and his views on local action. And you know, he's been in it for several decades, and is doing really good work. And I think that there's a lot to be learned, not just from European cities, but just kind of that structure that I think we don't always have here. It's very distributed. And there's some cities that are really far out ahead. But there's no real federal leadership. There's no continental leadership, even over here. It's just really interesting, I think, to hear about the ways in which those different levels of government are working together and that cities have had a better seat at the table and have been able to be a voice in some of these conversations about what needs to be done for climate change.

Larry Kraft  31:08

And one of the things along those lines that I jotted down was when he was talking about development standards. And how he said that they are linked to the goals of the Paris Agreement, which okay, duh makes sense. And we don't have those conversations here.

Abby Finis  31:29

No, we jump in and out of the Paris agreement at the will of whoever's the president, I guess. So yeah, we don't we don't have that. I mean, I think maybe perhaps where we get closest is with the building codes and energy standards that are in place there. And I think that we have seen more cities sustainability folks try to come to the table there. 

Larry Kraft  31:50

And I think but I also was meaning was that there when he says, well, we link it to the Paris Agreement, and it's very real and present for them. If we were to make an argument here of we need to do these, building an energy codes to link to the Paris Agreement, it wouldn't have the same weight, unfortunately, I think.

Abby Finis  32:09

Yeah. And when I was speaking with Holger in Freiburg, he, you know, he actually brought up agenda 21. And I laughed a little. And he was like, Oh, I know, I know that kind of a taboo word in the States, and, yeah, whether it's the Paris Agreement or agenda 21, or anything like European, people don't really want to hear that here. And so we have to navigate different ways, I think, or kick that hornet's nest.

Larry Kraft  32:35

Yeah. You talked about his view on cities. Small cities can move quickly drive experimentation, just our Flagstaff episode, recently, is a great example of that. They're out there trying stuff. And thank goodness, we've got people trying this stuff. And we'll see if it works, or you know, there's certainly some argue on both sides of this. But boy, you don't learn stuff unless you try it.

Abby Finis  33:01

Yeah, and just having the cities that are willing to go out there and try it and then have the demonstrations have real life example of how these different things get implemented, then allows other cities to see that it can be done in their community as well. And I think Europe is a bit ahead of us in a number of ways and more sustainable urbanization. And of course, part of that is due to the density. It's due to developing parts of different countries before cars. And so they have some advantages there. But they also have, I think, more political will more will have citizens. You know, one thing we didn't really talk about with equity was a major component. I think of the original thought was to have more citizen based ngagement, really bringing people in and what do you want your cities to look like.

Larry Kraft  33:55

The other thing for cities here, especially if you think about the time period from 2016, to 2020 2021, was there was no federal leadership on it. So the leadership came from cities and some states that struck me is something that made me different here than in Europe.

Abby Finis  34:15

Definitely. In either case, there's examples of cities doing the work. In Europe, you have the additional support of multiple levels of government. And here, it's really been driven, as you say, by the local level, and we'll probably hit on this. But as we're recording this, you know, it's a day after the announcement that there may actually be an agreement on a bill that includes some major climate funding. There's funding and we invest in clean energy and we invest in reducing emissions, but there's not a federal goal. There's not that guidance, and so it's gonna continue to be cities out in front, states I think as well and demonstrating that leadership.

Larry Kraft  34:58

I appreciate that you asked him about his holiday and his perspective that we're all going to experience the summer holidays. And that drove it home to me if last year ours was canceled because of climate impact. I mean, you have to really work hard to ignore it. 

Abby Finis  35:16

Right, and everybody's holiday or vacation might be a little bit different. But it doesn't matter. You know, if you're going on holiday to a city, and there's a heatwave, or if you're going camping and there's wildfires, you're gonna feel the consequences, or you might feel them at home to nowhere is safe. So why we've got to continue to act with more urgency and more pace.

Larry Kraft  35:38

Yeah, I'll close on one thing. You know, we talked briefly about the new federal climate inflation bill. Hopefully it will get us in the ballpark of where we need to go. But I think it's also going to even heightened the need for cities and states to now up their game to actually get there, but it seems to give us a fighting chance.

Abby Finis  36:00

Yeah, and I think that up their game or give them the boost they need. He said pretty clearly, you got to take advantage of the opportunities when they come to this is gonna be a huge opportunity. Lineup what your projects are, put a wish list together. And when that federal money comes in, leverage those dollars and try to make it go as far as it can go. 

Larry Kraft  36:22

That's a really good point. 

Abby Finis  36:27

We hope you enjoyed this episode of City Climate Corner. If you like what you're hearing, make sure to subscribe and give us a review. If you're able, become a monthly supporter through Patreon. As always, you can find more information on this topic and resources from each episode's guests on our webpage If you have an idea for the show, send us an email at or find us on Twitter, Instagram, and Facebook.

Larry Kraft  36:50

City Climate Corner is produced by Abby Finis and me, Larry Kraft. Edited by me. Our production assistant is Maggie Morin. Music by …

Abby Finis  36:59

King Gizzard and the Lizard Wizard.

Larry Kraft  37:01

Thanks for listening, and we'll see you next time.