City Climate Corner

Fayetteville AR: Bike City

Episode Summary

In February 2021 Fayetteville was the first city in the US to be awarded the designation of Bike City by the Union Cycliste Internationale (UCI), the world governing body of cycling. We talk with Dane Eifling, Fayetteville's Mobility Coordinator, about their approach to cycling infrastructure in this northwest Arkansas city of about 85,000 people.

Episode Notes

In February 2021 Fayetteville was the first city in the US to be awarded the designation of Bike City by the Union Cycliste Internationale (UCI), the world governing body of cycling. We talk with Dane Eifling, Fayetteville's Mobility Coordinator, about their approach to cycling infrastructure in this northwest Arkansas city of about 85,000 people.

Make sure to check out our bonus youth episode, where you'll learn the story of our unique podcast music. 


Episode Transcription


Abby Finis  00:02

Cities produce more than 60% of global greenhouse gas emissions. Big cities get a lot of attention, but most household emissions in the US actually come from communities outside urban cores, making them critical players in climate mitigation and climate justice. City Climate Corner explores how these small- and mid-sized cities are tackling climate change and moving toward an equitable and sustainable future. I'm Abby Finis.

Larry Kraft  00:23

And I'm Larry Kraft. We're co-hosts for City Climate Corner.

Abby Finis  00:30

Hey, Larry,

Larry Kraft  00:32

Fayetteville, Arkansas today. Where is Fayetteville? And what are we talking about?

Abby Finis  00:37

So Fayetteville is in the northwest corner of Arkansas, which I actually don't think I've ever been to Arkansas, have you?

Larry Kraft  00:46

I have, I've been to Northwest Arkansas actually, in my prior life in the private sector. I went to Bentonville, and I don't know if I ever made it through Fayetteville though.

Abby Finis  00:57

Yeah. It's a college town. And they have done a lot of really exciting work around improving their bike infrastructure just in kind of a condensed period of the last 15 years or so. And so today's topic is really going to be around biking.

Larry Kraft  01:14


Abby Finis  01:16

Are you an avid biker?

Larry Kraft  01:19

I am a biker. I've been working out of my home now for a number of years. But before that, I would commute to work a couple days a week on a bike. And I always felt so much better when I did that.

Abby Finis  01:32

Yeah, same and I live two miles from my office, so it's not very far. But I also would commute pretty much daily and just leaving work on a bike versus a car allows you to decompress a little bit from the day, and this is really just a nice way to do that.

Larry Kraft  01:50

Oh, gosh, absolutely. I was about eight miles away. So it was a little bit longer of a ride.

Abby Finis  01:55

Yeah, so I think that, you know, biking is a strategy for both reducing vehicle miles traveled and single occupancy vehicles within communities. And it really doesn't matter your city size, you can construct biking infrastructure in any community and help make your residents feel safe and make them want to get out and ride bikes. And I think oftentimes we see cities that embrace that also start to see their tourism go up. And people want to come to a community to do more biking or if they are in the community and they see biking is accessible, they'll do that as well. So it's really cool to see some of these examples out there of growing interest in this alternative...  I don't know, is it an alternative form of transportation? It is another form of transportation that's been around for a while, but it's having more of a renaissance I think in the US. 

Larry Kraft  02:52

Awesome. Let's learn from Fayetteville. 

Start of Interview

Abby Finis  02:57

Today we're speaking with Dane Eifling, mobility coordinator with the city of Fayetteville, Arkansas. Welcome, Dane. Tell us about Fayetteville and your role with the city.

Dane Eifling  03:05

Hi, thanks for having me on. Fayetteville Arkansas is a college town. We're about 90,000 people and growing fast. We're the third largest city in the state of Arkansas. And we have a relatively young, diverse population here. And we have a, also growing fast trail and bike network that has been awarded nationally on a few different fronts and what we're trying to expand our bike infrastructure and grow our mobility, alternative transportation as we grow.

Abby Finis  03:44

Yeah and today we really want to dig into, you know, what makes Fayetteville a bike-friendly city. Can you give us some background on how biking came to the forefront of what you do at the city of Fayetteville? 

Dane Eifling  03:57

Sure, yeah. I grew up in Fayetteville. I was born in the area and kind of throughout the 90s in the early 2000s, I did attempt to ride a bicycle around Fayetteville as a teenager and as a kid. There were no bike lanes, there were no trails to speak of. And, you know, right around the early 2000s that was when the then Mayor took a trip to Madison, Wisconsin, from what I understand. And he saw what was going on up there in that environment and came back and initiated our trails program by actually pulling staff off of the transportation crews that were busy paving streets and he said "well, you guys are going to build trails now" and that was a pretty revolutionary concept and it's pretty unique in the in the frame of city governments around the country. Most programs are funded and built by contractors. But we actually have an in-house crew that builds trails. So they're just like little streets, little roads through our town. And so that's been our model that's worked really well over the last 15-20 years as far as getting trail on the ground. 

So I had moved away from Fayetteville and moved to California with the Navy, and was, you know, gone throughout my 20s. And then living in the Bay Area, became very interested in alternative transportation, and then realized that while I was gone, these trails were going on the ground in Fayetteville. And so I was lucky enough to come back and slide into a spot as the first bicycle coordinator for the city of Fayetteville. We have a trails coordinator who's really been charged with more the infrastructure and design. But there are a lot of other efforts associated with biking in Fayetteville that needed more staff attention. And so I've been fortunate enough to be in that role since 2014. My title has changed, I'm now the mobility coordinator, which means I am involved a little bit more in some transit projects and micro mobility, such as e-scooters and bike share for the city. But my passion for getting people out of cars and onto two wheels or on their feet as a way to get around our town hasn't changed.

Abby Finis  06:31

Yeah, I love that. And I love hearing the stories of transformation in cities from that original concept and even being gone and returning to a place and how much it may have changed for biking infrastructure. That's really cool.

Larry Kraft  06:46

What a cool title too: What's, what's your job?" "I'm the bicycle coordinator". How much did you like, telling friends that?

Dane Eifling  06:55

Yeah, it's pretty neat. A lot of people have told me you've got the coolest job in town. People that are people that are kind of bike nerds, you know, they've got job envy. Even though when I first started out, I was just an energy corps service member and I was making less than the federal minimum wage. Like, well, it's really cool until you see my paycheck.

What makes Fayetteville “bike-friendly”?

Larry Kraft  07:21

Obviously, having the trails and that, I guess, multi-decade investment is huge. But I imagine there are other things besides just that infrastructure that make Fayetteville a bike friendly city. What are the things you think that go into making Fayetteville or any city bike friendly?

Dane Eifling  07:43

We predicate a lot of our mindset around the League of American Bicyclists, Bicycle Friendly Community Program -- the five E's. So there's engineering, that's obvious. That's your infrastructure. But there's also an education component. So we have bike program education in our public schools, and at the various levels for elementary, middle school, and high school that those kids are getting periodic age appropriate education in the schools of how to ride safely and maintain a bike in the schools. So that's a good example of how education can be a piece of that. Encouragement. So we have the second biggest bicycle event in the state is Square to Square. And that's a community bike ride between Bentonville and Fayetteville that takes place twice a year. And we have over 2000 people will turn out for that. So that's, that's a big party twice a year where it's open to everybody, and it's very approachable. And we have people that, you know, are not cyclists that will come out and ride a bike 30 miles on a Walmart bike, or bring their kids and that kind of thing. So trying to lower those barriers to entry, through encouragement. And then evaluation and planning, another area. So we have our active transportation plan, our mobility plan, all of those things. We're planning to succeed and we're planning to grow with what we're doing that we're thinking towards the future that looks not just different but looks better for people being able to get around without a car. 

Dane Eifling  09:33

They recently changed the other E  -- it used to be enforcement, which I guess, you know, the politics around the word enforcement had changed but some of the concepts are the same. It's equity and inclusion is the other E. We've done away with enforcement but we still like to make sure that we have laws on the books that protect everybody. You know, on the road, we've written our city ordinances to be very bike friendly, to make sure that it's legal to ride in the street in a safe manner, that you're not required to use a side path. For instance, if it's not clear and safe for you to do that. Just because there is a bike lane there doesn't mean that you have to be in the bike lane, you can use the full lane if you need to, to be safe. Those kinds of things. So it is really a holistic effort, that you can't just, you can't just build trail or you can't just build a bike path, and then call it good. But there's, there's a lot more to it than that. 

Larry Kraft  10:47

It makes so much sense that there’s a multi-dimensional approach, I love also the education that's built in. In looking at some of the plans and materials on your website. I think you all do a great job of explaining things like climate change and the impacts on the community. And then also your energy action plan and your transportation plan, you know really start out with some top level goals, and then break down how you do it. But I'm interested, a couple jumped out to me. One is in your energy action plan to achieve 25% bike/walk transit mode share by 2030 and reduce VMT to 2010 levels by 2030. And then within your transportation plan, trying to increase the active transportation commuting mode share to 15% by 2020. I threw out a lot of numbers there, but how do you track this? And how do you know if you're achieving those objectives around active transportation commuting mode share?

Dane Eifling  11:55

Well when I first started, and we that was one of the first projects I was involved in was that Active Transportation Plan in 2014, it was published in 2015. And we did set out some goals. They were based partly on the previous Active Transportation Plan, which was the Fayetteville Active Transportation and Trails Plan that was put out, I think in 2003, and we were just trying to build on those numbers. At that time, we relied mostly on -- and the League of American Bicyclists, and just about every community --relied mostly on census data for mode share to measure those. That's not really what we're using now, it's a little bit more, it's a little bit tougher to get that data, because the margin of error when you're talking about, you know, if you're talking about 2% by commuters, with a margin of error of 1%, then, you know, that's that's a pretty big relative margin of error. And those numbers are swinging so much that you could look at it from one, you know, one year to the next. And we get these pretty big swings and like our bike or walk mode share with just using the census data. We've done some community surveys, those, I think those are really helpful. But we also just look at our raw trail data. We do have several trail counters that we monitor how many people are using our trails, yeah, either by bike or foot. And those numbers are just continuing to grow. Even as we put more trail on the ground. I like to kind of describe it as we're introducing more competition for trail usage. But even with those new places for people to walk and bike, we're still seeing increases on our historic trails that have been there for a long time. The numbers are all positive, but it is a little bit tough to pin down and say we are or aren't meeting that goal. But those are targets that we want to get to for a lot of reasons.

Network effect of biking infrastructure

Larry Kraft  14:10

It's really interesting how you mentioned adding more trail and so sometimes there's competition between trails for the number of people using them.

Dane Eifling  14:21

Yeah, we're upping the supply of trail. We're upping the supply of places for people to walk and bike. But we're still seeing more customers even at our original location, if you will.

Abby Finis  14:34

If you build it, they will come.

Larry Kraft  14:36

A network effect right? It multiplies on itself.

Dane Eifling  14:41

The network piece, I was just going to try to squeeze this in there too. A network, the best example I know of a network is a chair. A chair has legs, it has a seat, it has a back and now nobody's going to use that chair, if it's missing a leg, nobody's going to use that chair, if it's missing a seat. But if it has two legs and, and one seat and a back, nobody's going to sit in that chair, just like nobody's going to ride a bike. If there's not a safe network that ties together in a logical manner, you and you want to be able to rely on that the same way you do, when you just go and sit in a chair. The same way you do when you get into your car, to drive across town, you just know that there's going to be a safe route for you to get there, you don't have to think about it. So that's what we're trying to get to with our bike network. So that it will be as reliable as a chair or as a road network, where you don't have to, you know, have a strong mental map of your route, you can just you can just go where you want to.


Larry Kraft  15:54

What are the environmental and climate and health benefits of active transportation? How does this plug into Fayetteville's overall climate approach and climate goals,

Dane Eifling  16:10

You know, our Environmental Director, Peter Nierengarten, and his office staff would really be the best people to dive into, you know, that whole plan. I can just say that, it's a huge piece. That I think, you know, I don't know the exact numbers, but transportation represents a big piece of our carbon footprint as a community. But for me, I'm just as interested in the, you know, the community piece of it as well. I think that as we continue to grow as a city, and introduce new people all the time, people are moving here every day. And we want those people to be part of a community where you actually see human beings out in public, and that those people are happy and healthy and choosing to be there. And so in order to do that, we need to have safe places for those people to do what human beings do, which is walk and bike and move their bodies. And so it's really what kind of community you want to raise your kids and grandchildren in? And it's not one that is nothing but cars and exhaust pipes. I think you could probably look at what the energy action plan says in terms of the statistics. But to me, it's more of just a, it's just a common sense approach to what do you want your community to look like? What do you want it to feel like, for people that are coming here, or, you know, trying to start a family here?

Abby Finis  17:39

That makes a lot of sense from a planning standpoint and building community? So I like the way you explained that. And one major piece is that biking isn't accessible to everybody for a variety of reasons, but it does look like your active transportation plan acknowledges that and has a section on inclusive mobility, can you talk about what the city means by inclusive mobility and how you work to implement that as part of the plan?

Dane Eifling  18:10

We do have some, you know, different mobility options, you know, outside of biking. But, you know, to stick on that for a second, we have adopted an all ages and abilities standard for all of our bike facilities that we've gotten away from, you know, a lot of the on street bike facilities that are maybe just paint or maybe just markers on the street. And you know, those are very affordable options. They're easy to plan and fund and execute, but they don't really reach everyone and those type of routes are still viewed as unsafe for certain people that maybe they have their children with them. Those sorts of things so that you know, all ages and abilities.  So something separated from traffic that has protected crossings and those sorts of things for people that are either on a bike or walking or maybe using some other kind of device like a wheelchair. Fayetteville also does have two transit operators, transit agencies operating that are fare free, so they're 100%, free for riders, the passengers. Razorback transit, and Ozark Regional Transit are funded in part by the city and through other public funding. And those programs are, you know, somewhat more focused on students, somewhat more focused on writers of need, shall we say, but anyone can ride. Anyone can use the bus free of charge. So I think that's something that is pretty special for Fayetteville. They do offer some paratransit or on-demand type services, fairly limited basis, but the services are available for people that need them. The city also offers free taxi service for people who are in need, you know, that's part of our community outreach for seniors disabled persons those types of types of folks.

Future of cycling in Fayetteville

Abby Finis  20:16

Yeah, there's a lot going on in mobility in Fayetteville. As cycling grows in popularity in the country, and in particular in Fayetteville, and there's better infrastructure to facilitate an increase in cycling, what do you see as the future of cycling in Fayetteville, as you look forward to the next, say, 10-15 years, what's that transformation look like?

Dane Eifling  20:39

There usually seems to be a little bit of a lag between the time that a new trail connection goes in, and then the time that the users actually really figure it out. So I think there's going to be a little bit of a lag. But even if we put the complete, we have over a 100 mile network planned, if we put it all on the ground today, I think it would take a little while for people to adapt to it and figure it out and learn it and begin to use it. So it's going to be process no matter what. But I think some of the biggest things that I see as the future are ebikes, escooters, electric micro vehicles that are already on our trails. We do allow and welcome escooters on our paved trails. People that would never ride a bike -- I don't care if you put a brand new bike, custom-made just for them on their doorstep, they're not going to ride it. For whatever reason, will ride these scooters and love them. I think that those type of vehicles are a huge deal for the future. Because people don't want to ride hills, they don't necessarily want to get a workout in, they don't want to get a sweat in on their way to class. And I understand that I and so I bought myself an ebike a year or so ago. And I absolutely love it. Fayetteville is very hilly. And so every route is a bike route for me now I don't have to, you know, necessarily go the long way around a hill that might be steep or worried about what I'm going to take on the bike that day, just put whatever I need to go and pile it on in the basket or in the in the luggage rack and and go. So I think yeah, those are two areas that are just going to be big changes, the ease, and the affordability of electric bikes and other scooters or whatever it may be combined with all the new infrastructure is going to allow people just a whole new way to get around.

Abby Finis  22:40

I think I'm going to take the plunge and get myself an electric bike this spring. I love my bike. But sometimes, you know, if it's an eight mile trip or something I don't I don't want to sweat. So the ebike would be a better option. 

Dane Eifling  22:51

Absolutely, absolutely.

Larry Kraft  22:53

I have to say I was skeptical on them. But my wife and I rented them on a trip a few months ago. And then she, and we both really enjoyed it. But now she got one because she has some knee issues and going up hills would be really tough and painful. And it just changes the perspective of where you can go on a bike.

Dane Eifling  23:18

Yeah, I got mine from Rad Power bikes, just an online consumer-direct. I mean, I love my local bike shops, but this was just too good of a deal to pass up. And yeah, I got mine for $1,500 bucks, and it has everything I would ever want on it. And they let you do 0% financing on it for 12 months. And so I was like, Okay,

Abby Finis  23:41

Nice. This is not an official endorsement of Rad bikes, but it's definitely the one I was checking out the most.

Dane Eifling  23:48

I mean, they do leave a little bit to be desired. But for the price, I mean geez, you really just can't beat it.

Advice for other cities

Larry Kraft  23:57

Alright, Dane. So what advice do you have for other cities, on advancing biking in their communities?

Dane Eifling  24:04

I mean, I think for Fayetteville, what probably the most key decision was, you know, a couple things. You got to have public buy-in. And so if you're doing a transportation bond or you're, you're making your budget, you've got to put some money down. Don't sit there and wait for the federal government to come in and write you a big grant check or for some ship to come in. We've been the beneficiaries of, you know, having the Walton family Foundation in our region. But we would have never gotten any of that funding if we weren't already doing something. If we weren't already building trail ourselves. Success begets more success. And, you know, you just got to look around for what resources you do have. I mentioned Mayor Coody's effort to just reassign city staff. You know, we've already got a street network, but we don't have a trail network. So maybe there's resources that are already available to you that you can just reallocate, and put into these things. So I think those are all points I would make to a city that maybe is just wondering where to start or just not finding where to start.

Larry Kraft  25:20

It also strikes me not having a short-term time horizon on it too. That you all started this a while ago. And then your point that once you put trail in, it takes a little bit of time for people to figure it out and use it. So to have a plan that's a five-year or 10-year plan or longer that you can add to over time seems like an approach that you all have taken that's been successful.

Dane Eifling  25:44

Yeah, and it does seem like a slow process. But if you compare our progress to just about any other city in the country, we have moved further in a shorter amount of time than just about anyone, we didn't have a bike lane, or a trail on the ground 15 years ago to speak of. And now we are listed on the top 10 bike cities in the country. And we've ranked on the People for Bikes scorecard, we ranked number one. They have five categories for how they score communities, and we were ranked number one in acceleration in the country. And so that's a measure of how fast you're building your bike network. So we're building our bike network faster than any other community in the country. But it still feels slow. We still have people saying, Oh, my God, when is the trail going to come into my neighborhood?

International award as “Bike City”

Abby Finis  26:37

You're also being recognized internationally. Can you tell us about this award that you just received earlier in February?

Dane Eifling  26:47

Yeah. Big shout out to Brannon Pack. He's the cycling coordinator for our Visitor's Bureau, Experience Fayetteville. And he has a really unique job too. I don't know that there are too many other Visitors Bureau that have a dedicated cycling coordinator. But we have a few big events that are scheduled to take place in the next few years in Fayetteville. They're all cycling-oriented. So they were able to bring him on to help with those. He and I helped and he got help from other members to apply for the UCI, which UCI stands for Union Cyclists International. It's a European outfit, I think they're out of France or something. But they have a list of bike cities throughout the world and what they're looking for -- it's a unique award because it's not like the Places for Bikes or Bicycle Friendly Community. In that what they're looking for are communities that offer bike experiences for every rider all the way from what they call the everyday rider. So that's your average man or woman looking to ride a bike to the grocery store, all the way up to your elite Olympic-level professional athlete. And so we have several international cycling events here, most notable is the Joe Martin Stage Race. And then Fayetteville was also chosen to host the Cyclocross World Championships. So it's only the second time that that event has been held in North America. And it's coming to Fayetteville, Arkansas in 2022. So those are things that they look at where they're saying, not only do you have a bike from the community, but you have something that speaks to their goal of holding these elite competitions, as well. 

Abby Finis  28:35

That's really cool. Congratulations on that. If somebody were to come to Fayetteville and want to ride the trails, what trails do you recommend?

Dane Eifling  28:43

Well, so the Razorback Regional Greenway is our primary trail that runs north south and it actually is 40 miles long and you can start at Kessler Regional Park, is the mile zero is what we call it, but it's the southernmost point. And it's a beautiful nature park as well as ball fields and things like that. So you can ride a mountain bike out there at Kessler Regional Park, and head north. The Greenway is a paved trail 12 feet wide, you know, well lit at night and has safe crossings, but you'll be separated from any kind of automobile traffic the whole time. And that'll walk you right through our downtown areas through some more scenic parts near campus where it's kind of a little more hip and funky and urban, and then wind you up through the north part of town up to Lake Fayetteville and some more scenic parts of town, you can ride around the lake, that's probably our most popular loop ride is around Lake Fayetteville. We have 10s of 1000s of people do that every year. But you can also just continue north for the remaining 30 miles up through the region. And you can see the entire Northwest Arkansas region all the way up to Bentonville. Crystal Bridges is a world class Art Museum, and downtown Springdale and other other communities along the way. Just make a spectacular day you could ride one way and make a day of it. If you're a more advanced rider, you don't mind doing a little touring, you can do all the way up and back and do 70 miles plus in a day and stop for lunch. There's lots of cafes and coffee shops and parks and hidden gems along the way. That would be what I would recommend for somebody visiting.

Larry Kraft  30:30


Abby Finis  30:31

I know, bring that ebike.

Larry Kraft  30:33

But then anything else that we've missed that you want to add anything you think is important.

Dane Eifling  30:39

Just go Hogs!

Abby Finis  30:44

Of course, you have to, right? 

Dane Eifling  30:45

Yeah, we got a good basketball team this year at least.

Larry Kraft  30:50

Yeah. All right. Why thank you so much. This has been great. 

Abby Finis  30:54

Thank you, Dane. Really great work in Fayetteville. 

Abby and Larry debrief

Abby Finis  31:00

So we are going to do a debrief on this episode with Dane Eifling from Fayetteville, Arkansas, but we decided to just pack our bags and go to Fayetteville for a bike tour.

Larry Kraft  31:10

Right? Count me in. 

Abby Finis  31:13

Um, that was a really, that was a fun conversation. I enjoyed learning about Fayetteville, it's not something I would have expected if somebody asked me about Fayetteville, you know, I don't know a lot about it. So it was really cool to dive into that and not only get a picture of what biking is like in the city, but what the city is like through the lens of biking, which is one of my favorite ways to see cities is either on my feet or on a bike.

Larry Kraft  31:42

Yeah, it really struck me as I was looking at their plans and their website, they do a great job of describing climate change and how it impacts them in a very fact-based, non-divisive way. So I encourage everyone to look at that. But I love the story of the mayor coming back about 15 years ago and saying we got to start building bike infrastructure and pulling people off of roads to build bike infrastructure. And it seems like it just mushrooms over time.

Abby Finis  32:15

Yeah, and I love it as an example of looking at it from well, you know, we don't need to have all these cars and breathe in this exhaust, there's other ways to get around, and we can be healthier and more active about doing that as a strategy to be a healthier, more vibrant community where you see people out and about, versus just an approach to think about how to reduce the use of cars, because cars, you know, have a purpose and they have they have value to people. But there's also this aspect of just bringing life and vitality to your community by making bike and other mobility aspects more accessible to more people.

Larry Kraft  32:59

Yeah, it was really interesting when I asked him about how it tied into the climate work and all that. He obviously said, yes, it does, but he went really quickly to yeah, but the community that it creates, the way it builds community is really, you can see you can hear it that drives him. So many of these things we're talking about that can be thought of as climate or clean energy investments have so much other benefits for people and just improving quality of life. That is really encouraging to hear him be so you know, so passionate about that.

Abby Finis  33:42

Yeah. I like the kind of impatience of people, you know, wanting the trail to get to their [community], like when's it coming to our community. You want that right, you want that demand for it to be there because then it enables you to continue to do what you're doing and building out those amenities for your communities. And Fayetteville is clearly very intentional about how they do it from you know, bike-friendly zoning ordinances to very intentional and thoughtful trail planning and that whole consideration of well, the network of trails is akin to a chair, right? You need to have the complete network or the complete chair in place to feel safe, and to make it something that becomes kind of second nature to people and you don't have to think about it, you can just go out and do it. So that was a really cool aspect and approach to that.

Larry Kraft  34:36

Yeah. Thinking about how do you make it accessible to everyone, I was really interested to hear his response that, you know, that they for a while, they did share the road markings and paint and stuff. But what they've really focused on, is more of, in this infrastructure where the bikes and pedestrians are separate from cars in some way. And that makes people much more comfortable to use them, not just the nerd bicyclists, but everyone.

Abby Finis  35:10

Yeah, I mean, if you're planning your bike infrastructure so that a six-year-old can feel safe, then you know, everybody can feel safe. And you can feel more comfortable about bringing your family out and allowing your kids to ride or if you know they talk about A and B riders. A riders might be people who ride daily and don't have a problem getting into traffic and riding with cars. And B riders might be a little bit more reserved, and don't feel comfortable doing that. And so, when you get to a place in just 15 years, where you're, you're prioritizing those be writers and moving beyond the paint and creating safe spaces, it's really going to do a lot I think to accelerate the adoption rate of people choosing their bikes over their cars for their trips.

Larry Kraft  35:58

So when we go to Fayetteville, Abby?

Abby Finis  35:59

I'm ready. 

Abby Finis  36:03

We hope you enjoyed this episode of City Climate Corner. If you like what you're hearing, make sure to subscribe and give us a review. If you're able, become a monthly supporter through Patreon. As always, you can find more information on this topic and resources from each episode's guests on our webpage If you have an idea for the show, send us an email at or find us on Twitter, Instagram, and Facebook.

Larry Kraft  36:27

City Climate Corner is produced by Abby Finis and me, Larry Kraft, edited by me. Music by...

Abby Finis  36:33

King Gizzard and the Lizard Wizard.

Larry Kraft  36:35

Thanks for listening and we'll see you next time.