City Climate Corner

Making Solar Easy: Solsmart and IREC

Episode Summary

There's no such thing as a free lunch, right? Well, maybe there is in solar. Cities participating in the free Solsmart program have been shown to have almost 20% more solar installations than cities that don't. We interview Theresa Perry, Solsmart Program Director at the Interstate Renewable Energy Council (IREC) about some of the hidden and soft costs around solar deployments and how Solsmart helps cities address them and make solar easier.

Episode Notes

There's no such thing as a free lunch, right? Well, maybe there is in solar. Cities participating in the free Solsmart program have been shown to have almost 20% more solar installations than cities that don't. We interview Theresa Perry, Solsmart Program Director at the Interstate Renewable Energy Council (IREC) about some of the hidden and soft costs around solar deployments and how Solsmart helps cities address them and make solar easier. 


Episode Transcription


Abby Finis  00:02

Cities produce more than sixty percent of global greenhouse gas emissions. Big cities get a lot of attention, but most household emissions in the US actually come from communities outside urban cores, making them critical players in climate mitigation and climate justice. City Climate Corner explores how these smal- and mid-sized cities are tackling climate change and moving toward an equitable and sustainable future. I'm Abby Finis.

Larry Kraft  00:23

And, I'm Larry Kraft. We're co-hosts for City Climate Corner. Hey, Abby. 

Abby Finis  00:31

Hey, Larry. 

Larry Kraft  00:32

What's going on these days?

Abby Finis  00:34

Well, I feel like the last few times we've been getting whiplash from some hope on a climate bill to crushing those dreams to hope. And I think we're back. 

Larry Kraft  00:47

We were Manchin-ed. 

Abby Finis  00:49

Right we were Manchin-ed. Now we can be cautiously optimistic. 

Larry Kraft  00:53


Abby Finis  00:54

This has the potential to be huge. It includes 369 billion for clean energy investments. And just for comparison, the ARRA Stimulus of the Obama years was 90 billion. And so that had a huge impact on clean energy energy efficiency, and really gave a a boost to some of those renewable energy markets. And so I think that the 369 billion, and the private capital that will be leveraged through that is huge.

Larry Kraft  01:34

Yeah. At the highest level I mean, there's so much great stuff in this. So obviously, not everything but high level is that it puts us in the game puts us within shouting distance of hitting the goals that we need to. That's really encouraging. 

Abby Finis  01:52

Yeah, it is. It's important for cities to continue to pay attention to what funding might become available, whether it's there's still the infrastructure funding that is out there. And I think grants are really starting to open up now. And we're starting to understand a bit more about what will be available to cities through that. And then with this, what is it the inflation Reduction Act? Should this make it through, there's also going to be a ton more opportunities. It's going to have incentives for electrifying heating systems. It's going to have incentives for electric vehicles, all sorts of things that all that'll hit home that will be there for businesses that local governments can help everyday residents, business community take advantage of some of those things and implement their own programs.

Larry Kraft  02:40

Yeah, it's great. And also reading more about it learning that there was an environmental justice angle to this to a $60 billion EJ investment, which apparently will be the largest of such type in our history.

Abby Finis  02:54

Yeah, I think that that's critical. And it underscores the Biden administration's commitment to justice 40 and 40% of benefits, going to environmental justice communities. And so if we can keep on putting money in to rectifying current and past harms, and ensuring that people aren't left behind, as this major investment in clean energy happens, people can't be left behind who have been left behind historically, who have bared the burden of pollution, folks who are in fossil fuel jobs need to transition out and into other cleaner opportunities as well.

Larry Kraft  03:36

And, I think you mentioned this, but there's a good amount of solar stuff in here, too, isn't there?

Abby Finis  03:45

Yeah. And a lot of communities have seen growth in solar. We spoke with the Winneshiek Energy District a couple episodes back. And we've seen a solar boom in the last decade, and we're gonna continue to see that grow and some cities are better prepared than other cities to handle it. Fortunately, there is a program that's available for cities that can help them prepare for solar coming into their community and making it easier and tailored to their community desires. And that's the SolSmart program through IREC, which is the Interstate Renewable Energy Council.

Larry Kraft  04:23

That's right. And we're talking to Theresa Perry there, the program director. And I love SolSmart, St. Louis Park loves SolSmart. We're a gold member, but you get to learn what that is by listening. 

Abby Finis  04:37

Let's do it. 

Larry Kraft  04:38

Let's do it. 

Start of interview

Larry Kraft  04:41

Today we are speaking with Theresa Perry, director of the SolSmart program at IREC. Let's start with introductions. Theresa, can you introduce yourself?

Theresa Perry  04:51

My name is Theresa Perry and I am with the Interstate Renewable Energy Council. I've been here now for about three years with the SolSmart program. Really excited about how we continue to grow and the new things that are happening with the program, really excited about the number of communities that continue to work with us to enable better solar market development in their local regions.

Larry Kraft  05:14

So you said what IREC stands for, but can you tell us more about what is IREC? What does it do? What's its purpose?

Theresa Perry  05:20

IREC is a great organization. They've been around for nearly 40 years, they look at regulatory, they look at workforce development, we are an independent organization. And we were at one point, the solar foundation. And last year, we merged the two organizations, the solar Foundation had been around for similar amounts of time. IREC had a broader view of not just solar energy, but clean energy, we brought the organizations together. It was really to me a perfect marriage, we look at local governments, we look at workforce, we look at regulatory, and just working to make clean energy, a reality in this country.

Solsmart background

Larry Kraft  06:02

We're gonna be talking about SolSmart, but what is it? What is SolSmart?

Theresa Perry  06:06

SolSmart is a designation program. It's a program that local governments can participate in, to pick up and adopt best practices to make their solar markets develop and to bring solar to their community. So we do a basic bronze, silver, gold. We have criteria or best practices that we have been outlining for some time now. We do refine them move forward, and make them as clear as possible. Communities then can get that free technical assistance to get the help they need to make sure they are doing as much as they can to get solar to their communities.

Abby Finis  06:48

SolSmart has been around for a while, and it was established to help communities remove some of the local barriers to higher rates of adoption for solar. What are some of those barriers?

Theresa Perry  07:00

You know, they are some sometimes just very basic, like, do you have a permit for solar? There are some communities that don't have a special permit for that. There are other communities that might have something very specific about not having solar on their rooftops, just because it's aesthetically not appealing. So there are a lot of different ways that communities can have barriers, sometimes very implicit, and sometimes kind of not realizing that they're they're just not realizing they have things in place. 

Theresa Perry  07:31

Some of the basic things that we have as best practices is to have a solar landing page, which your community members can say, Oh, I have been thinking of solar on my rooftop. How do I do that in this community? And they can go and get as much information as they need from the community. Likewise, solar installers can do that so that if they want to start working within a community, they know precisely what the permit process is, what the inspection process is, what the fees are. It's posted, it's available. It's just those basics of getting that information in but as communities go for higher designation levels, they could be things like a feasibility study to get solar on a municipal building. That might help communities then reach their own renewable energy goals. 

Abby Finis  08:21

Yeah, I really like the structure for SolSmart because it's this formulaic process of reviewing your current conditions of planning, your regulatory zoning process, your permitting process, what kind of education and outreach are you doing. So how do you help cities go through those structures and identify if they have existing barriers? And then if they do, or they don't, you know, what are some different ways in addition to what you just mentioned, that they can remove barriers, say from like zoning, or some of the policies that they might have in place?

Theresa Perry  08:55

I'm just going to back up a little bit, Abby, just because I was so excited. We did a study almost two years ago now that looked at how we're doing as a program, but one thing they looked at is which communities used which criteria, which set of best practices to get designated. And one thing that I found was that no communities used precisely the same set of criteria. We had at that time 95 different criteria that communities could select. We've now streamlined that a bit down to 75. But what we find is that communities love to say these are our goals and community A's goals are going to be different from what community B's goals are. 

Theresa Perry  09:36

We do a gap analysis and we say okay, for your goals, here are the criteria that you should use to reach where you want to go. And with that gap analysis, we might include the things they've already done. Hopefully they've got some work already in progress, but if not, that's okay. Where are they? Where they want to go? What are the steps they need to take? Most communities get some training for their Planning Department on what is the proper way to do a permit? What is the proper way to do inspection? Those types of things are really great for some communities that have done absolutely nothing and kind of get them going. So we can start with the community from, you know, we've done nothing and do that gap analysis and get them to a basic level. We can work with somebody from zero to, we want to be the best there is in solar in our area, and we can get them there. And we can work with somebody who is already at a leading level and help them get to one step further, if that's what they're looking for.

Solsmart, permitting & soft costs

Abby Finis  10:35

I like that. And I like that shift and tailoring it to meet communities where they're at rather than trying to over prescribe what they should be doing and could be doing because there's internal barriers that they might run up against, or it doesn't meet their goals. And I worked in this area a little bit for a while. And what I recall is that one of the biggest barriers tends to be around permitting. Have you seen a shift in that? And, why is permitting kind of an important piece of all of this at the local level?

Theresa Perry  11:03

I think there's just the basic notion of soft costs. There's the cost of the solar panels. And then there's the cost of everything else that's not that hardware cost. That might include the design of the solar panels, it might include paperwork, it might include the recruiting of getting new customers, and those are all kind of rolled into this giant soft cost of putting a panel onto somebody's rooftop. The cost that permitting brings in is related mostly to the amount of time that it takes. There's also some fees associated and those vary wildly from one community to the next. We have some recommendations that keep those costs low for those permits as opposed to $300 for a solar permit is just too much for a community to charge, adds to the cost of the solar fixture. 

Theresa Perry  11:58

But that time is the big thing. So if it takes two weeks for a permit to get approved, that's two weeks that the solar company is waiting the customer might walk, it might take time for them to line things up. And the best practices that we put in place for the gold level is a three day turnaround. There's another DLP program called solar app, where it's instantaneous processing for many different types of solar that communities can do. And so for those cities that have a lot of permits coming through, and it's taking up a lot of their staff time, they can get this free government automatic processing program and deploy that within their internal government and get that instantaneous processing, saving them money on their staff time saving the time for the permit to be processed and getting points towards SolSmart. We do have automated permitting as part of our program, there's a lot that can happen with permitting to speed things up, to lower the costs takes a lot of knowledge.

Solsmart designations

Larry Kraft  13:03

Theresa, can you describe the designation process for cities who just want to get designated different levels?

Theresa Perry  13:10

We have like so many organizations, bronze, silver, gold. Each of them have prerequisites that everybody has to do. And then you add some points to get to the next level up. And so bronze is pretty simple. We have some requirements in the permitting inspection, planning zoning. And then they can choose from special focus categories, which might be government relations, it might be utility engagement, it could be community engagement. But the prereqs for the bronze is to provide a solar statement. That's just a letter committing themselves to the process usually has to be signed by city official, complete the solar permitting checklist, which just means you create a checklist you put it on your solar landing page. Make it available for everybody to see here's exactly what our process is and then complete a zoning review. So those prerequisites are there. And then again, they choose some some additional ones to get a total of 60 points. 

Theresa Perry  14:13

To move up to silver, there's a couple more prerequisites, you're gonna get some staff training, which is great. I can't say enough how great staff training is. And let me just say that this program is free for communities to go through but all its resources are also free for anybody to go on the website. So these trainings, if your community isn't ready to do SolSmart, but they want to get their planning staff trained, they can just go to our website and get that webinar. It's pretty easy to find. But in any case for silver, they have to complete staff training, inspection training, and then zoning clarification so it's a little bit more than just a zoning review. We go through the zoning clarification and you get some additional points. 

Theresa Perry  15:00

For gold, it's that permit turnaround time being three days and then making solar a accessory buy right? In, there's zoning, all our gold communities have that we call it pz five, that's one of the hardest ones for communities to get done, because zoning changes often take a lot of time. So it's not just a quick and easy thing for them to do.

Larry Kraft  15:22

If a city is going through these various steps and need some help, need some technical assistance. How is that done?

Theresa Perry  15:29

Once they're ready to commit, if you go to our website, so, there's a button that says I would like some help. There's several different places, you can just hit a button and put your information and we will reach out to you for sure. It's fairly easy to do. Our priority communities are those communities that are working toward designation. But you know, if somebody's just like, we just need one little piece for this over here, we can direct our resources on that as well.

Larry Kraft  15:56

Hey, we're taking a quick break to say if you like what you're hearing, please support us. You can do so by clicking the Support Us link on our website, at or you can go to our Store and get some cool merch.


Larry Kraft  16:16

What are some of the successes of the program? I mean, have you seen some correlation with people getting these designations and the varying levels and leading to more solar installations?

Theresa Perry  16:29

We have, it's really exciting. We had a study that same study from 2020, that looked at our communities to say, what's the impact of this? And they did this study, they got rid of all of the things like self selection bias, like if you're going for SolSmart, of course, you're going to have more solar deployed, right? So they were able to erase all of that in their modeling, they saw that we still show a 17 to 19% increase in solar deployment, both in the number of kilowatts and the number of systems in SolSmart designated communities over those communities that are not designated. 

Theresa Perry  17:08

We also saw a lot of other very positive things. They did some surveys of the communities. And the big thing that communities walked away with saying was we learned so much. The knowledge increase for our local government improves our ability to make this solar market development improve so much. That was really nice to see. That was I think the top piece that we saw in that survey is just that. Communities loved it because they felt that much more competent and trying to develop those markets.

Equity and Solsmart

Larry Kraft  17:43

One thing about solar as you think about putting on your own home, it's a big upfront investment. And there's some questions sometimes on how do you make access to solar equitable? Are there things that you're doing to encourage that? And are there some recommended best practices from SolSmart to ensure that access to solar is equitable?

Theresa Perry  18:03

That's a great question. With this survey, one thing that we found was that those communities that reported themselves as having less finances within the local government and less staff, so they were under resourced, by both staff and money, were less likely to participate in the program. We really wanted to redesign how we were providing service to all communities, and wanted to make sure that we could then make it possible for all communities to participate. 

Theresa Perry  18:34

And so we spent a lot of time streamlining our criteria and making them much more clear, much more obvious, and having a lot more instruction provided so that communities didn't have to work so hard to pass that administrative burden of the program. And then the other thing we did was we created a lot more technical resources that were just template. So that permitting checklist, when the program first started, the community had to create it. And then the program would say, Oh, that's good enough, or no, it's not. Now we have templates. If you're a community, you're like, we would love to have a permitting checklist. Here's the template, just make it yours. We've done that for a number of things so that it makes it much easier for those under resourced communities to participate in the program. 

Theresa Perry  19:26

For me, personally, the idea of whole communities being left behind in the clean energy revolution, because they can't keep up with the speed with which this technology is changing so that they have things in place. It's incredibly important for those entire communities to be able to participate. The other thing that we did was we looked at populations within communities and how to help communities ensure that all of their population so when I use the word communities, I'm talking about the local governments, you know, the town, the city, the county. Populations within that community might struggle to participate in solar, even if the city is making progress in permitting and training their planning and zoning folks. 

Theresa Perry  20:11

So what we did was we took all of our criteria, and we applied an equity lens to it. So that basically any community that is going through the SolSmart process, can apply that equity lens and make sure that they are including every person within their community and allowing everybody to participate. So if they're looking at zoning, are they really using the the idea of how do we zone in all of our neighborhoods? There are definitely criteria now that look at LMI, they've always been there. LMI populations, they look at solarized campaigns, and you can gear your solarized campaign toward making sure that you have the LMI populations included in the solarized campaigns. 

Theresa Perry  20:55

We've seen a lot of communities do things like just finding ways to provide funding for the low to moderate income households and make sure that they can participate. We just had a story come out of Wise County, in Virginia, and Wise County's in the southwest part, the little tale of Virginia. We had done a lot of work in there for large scale development, it's a very rural area. Virginia is a state advisor for the program. So they work to recruit Virginia communities, we had done some work on manufacturing through a different program not SolSmart to bring all of those communities in. They have just been granted, I think $460,000 of federal money to pilot a program for an LMI financing piece, to solar in that area. And to me, what's really great about that, is that they're finding ways to make sure that everybody can participate without financing being the next piece of that puzzle, it's gonna be hard for everybody to participate. We can't meet our climate goals without everybody participating in this revolution.

Solsmart future

Abby Finis  22:06

So you mentioned before that SolSmart has has been updating and changing things as it goes along. There's all kinds of barriers right now, I think, to solar and opportunities, I think in terms of high energy prices, inflation may be pitted against one another. We've had issues with importing solar, and kind of some stalls there. What do you see ahead for SolSmart? And how can it help to address some of these issues?

Theresa Perry  22:33

There have been tremendous changes within the program. And I do want to point out that DOE has extended this program through 2027, another five years really excited about that. And there are some areas of focus that we are going to look at really spending a lot of time on equity, and then spending a lot of time on metrics as well, because I think that it's important for us to be able to measure what's the impact of this program. But it's also important, I think, for communities to be able to measure the progress toward their goals. I think more and more communities are saying 100% renewable by whenever and how do we measure that? Or this percentage of renewable energy, and how do we measure that? 

Theresa Perry  23:14

With respect to solar panel imports from other countries, that that is not something that we spend time on with local governments. But it definitely is something to watch. There's a lot of resources on the website that can point folks to looking at incentives that are available in their state, etc. When do things expire? What does it look like? How do you calculate an ROI on a solar system that you're putting on a municipal building? All of that is available on the website. I like to think there's never been a better time to take advantage of solar. 

Theresa Perry  23:56

One of the other significant changes or growth areas opportunities we're taking is looking at rural communities. We have a lot of rural communities that are coming to us and asking for help on how to make sure that they're doing things right for large scale development in their area. Some communities are saying that they're being approached by developers to build solar and they don't know what their zoning should look like. They don't know what they're planning should look like. They don't know what decommissioning is in a contract. What happens to the town when the giant solar farm is no longer viable? Are they responsible for taking it away? So those types of issues are being faced by smaller, more rural communities and we do have quite a bit on that. 

Theresa Perry  24:46

We do have a large scale guidance, which criteria should you do if you're interested in large scale and how to make that happen? The southwest Virginia project was a project that we really spent a lot of time working with them to make sure that they had everything they needed to move forward safely and fairly and progress in getting that energy that they could then sell. There's another federal program called solar at scale that is really great for those rural communities. So it's another resource that's available so that they can learn more before they do SolSmart or as they're doing SolSmart. I really like how all the federal programs work together to help communities to help individuals, there's a lot of overlap in that. Really happy to see that progress happening for our smaller communities and rural communities.

Abby Finis  25:37

That's a good point. And we primarily like to focus on the smaller and midsize communities. Do you see any major differences or anything that stands out between smaller and larger communities? Is it harder? Or is it easier, you know, how are they able to function within the process?

Theresa Perry  25:55

I think for the smaller communities, they tend to just have less resources, and that staff in smaller communities tend to wear more hats. And so if you have a global pandemic come through, suddenly SolSmart is important, but not as important as making sure everybody has what they need. Because kids aren't in school. Those communities where people are being pulled in many directions really struggle with those types of issues. We saw with COVID, a lot of communities kind of stall in their progress, and they pick it back up and then stall, again, perfectly understandable. 

Theresa Perry  26:36

One thing that we do have is a regional organization pathway. And we've really been working with regional organizations, since we got that put together. We now have, I should know this, I think we have 14 regional organizations that have been designated. And in their designation, what they're doing is working directly with their local community. So for those smaller cities, if they are part of an economic development organization, or regional organization, or a council of governments, you know, they have a lot of different names. But basically, that larger organization can hold all the trainings, for example, for all the towns in that community. So if it's difficult to find the time to get that organized, asking your regional organization to help and get all of the communities in the area, designated at the same time, helps with that solar development in that area, because there's a little more momentum, and then just helps those communities with the administrative tasks of setting those types of things up.

Abby Finis  27:36

What counts as a regional organization? Can it be counties? Is it typically metropolitan planning organizations or what counts as that?

Theresa Perry  27:45

It's not usually counties for you guys in Minnesota, it's the Met council. Here I'm in Fairfax County, Virginia, and ours is in Northern Virginia, Council of Governments. I think it just varies from area to area, what that economic development organization is called. But usually it's several counties, maybe a major metropolitan area and the outlying counties.


Larry Kraft  28:10

Theresa, one of the last things we want to ask you is, what advice do you have for cities that are maybe thinking about participating?

Theresa Perry  28:21

I have so much advice to give, but let me narrow it down. Actually, this is advice that came from a regional organization sustainability coordinator. And she got on a panel discussion we had within this regional org that was long ago designated and then she was just starting. And she kind of apologized, she said look at I don't have time, I don't have resources, and I'm doing this as much as I can do when I can do it. And I loved that attitude. And I think that for any city or smaller community, or even a big community, you don't have to reach for gold level on day one. Start where you can start. Take a look, see what's out there, see what speaks to your community's issues and move forward. The SolSmart is great at the bronze levels. SolSmart can also serve as a launchpad and to smart cities. Beneficial electrification, EV, you know, all of those ideas are intermingled and just get started. There's lots you can do and it's not as hard as it feels like it could be

Larry Kraft  29:37

And there's always help right at the click of a button.

Theresa Perry  29:40

Always help. no cost to you. 

Larry Kraft  29:43

Well, thank you so much. We've really enjoyed this. Boy if you're listening and you're not yet involved in SolSmart, gotta do it. 

Theresa Perry  29:52

Yeah, so Can I say that?

Larry Kraft  29:55

You can.

Abby and Larry debrief

Larry Kraft  30:00

All right, Abby, what did you think? What were your takeaways?

Abby Finis  30:03

Well, I just think this is a really great program for any community that wants to enable solar. We talked a bit about the soft costs and how much solar has dropped in costs in the last 10-12 years, it's been incredibly significant. But one thing that kind of remains is those soft costs. So that's the permitting costs, maybe interconnection fees, different regulatory hoops, you might have to jump through. And that's where the cities can really come in and look at, well, how are we unintentionally often putting up barriers to solar adoption in our community? And how can we make that smoother to help bring down some of these remaining costs that are not totally necessary? It's just a really smart program. And I like how it's evolving from one that was a bit more prescriptive, to one that serves a bit more as a framework that cities can tailor their own goals to.

Larry Kraft  31:02

Yeah, it makes sense that this would make things easier, but the study that they did, where they tried to remove all the extraneous stuff that showed a 17 to 19% increase in solar, for communities that have SolSmart, hey it works.

Abby Finis  31:16

They try to cover all of the different bases where you might be considering solar. And so if you're a homeowner, and you want to put solar on your rooftop, and you know that you're gonna have to go through the permitting process, maybe you'll look at the city's website. And if there's a landing page there that's like, Hey, here's some step by step instructions for what to do. If you're gonna get solar on your roof, that's super helpful, or hey, did you know there were these tax credits, these utility rebates are available. So I think that those kinds of things, and then the kind of behind the scenes is, what are their zoning look like? Do we restrict this accessory use? Or do we enable it and just thinking through those different things, making the permitting process smoother. Seems to have a pretty big impact. Seeing that that differential from SolSmart designated communities to the general population is a pretty good achievement.

Larry Kraft  32:11

One of the things that was interesting to me was, as I think about the program, coming from a first ring suburb, I think about permitting process to put it on homes and small businesses. But it was interesting to hear her talk about in rural communities, a lot of the things they're working with folks on, it's not just that, but it's on large scale development, where you have developers wanting to come in and putting in a large community solar garden or something.

Abby Finis  32:35

Yeah, I think that's something that has maybe been overlooked by developers and regulators is the impact of larger scale solar and rural communities. It can go both ways, you know, you can have communities that are very excited about it, and want the tax benefits that might come with that. And other economic benefits that might come with that. But it's also been done in ways that are not consistent with the community. And they come in and do this big gravel foundation and chain link fence around it, and it becomes a bit of an eyesore, versus if you're in a rural community, you can have some say in what it looks like, do you want it to be a pollinator habitat? Do you want it to have water quality benefits, you know, and thinking through some of the landscaping that can be beneficial to the community and more aesthetically pleasing? It's really important to not just look at rooftop and smaller scale solar, but also what are the community desires for larger scale solar and then inviting that in? Because it is a real economic opportunity for rural communities.

Larry Kraft  33:42

It's also interesting to hear her talk about their work with regional organizations. That's a theme we've heard a number of times too, is that it can often be really helpful to work with a bunch of cities in a region.

Abby Finis  33:54

Yeah. And I actually think that we might be one of the first with the Metropolitan Council here. So back when SolSmart was through the solar Foundation, which has since been merged into IREC. I think one of our future guests, Brian Ross pitched the idea that, hey, we have them at council and they work with 140 plus communities in the metropolitan region. What if you put a solar advisor there, and so they did. And Met Council has been able to help a ton of communities not just work their way through the SolSmart program, but also ensure that solar is included in all of the comprehensive plans, creating really great maps and tools and calculators, for communities to use. They also have been able to create kind of affordable housing solar programs within the Met Council region. And so they've demonstrated that this regional approach can be really impactful too. So it's awesome to see that they've expanded to other regional governments, and they can correct me if I'm wrong on the first regional, but I think that is correct.

Larry Kraft  34:58

Great stuff.

Abby Finis  35:02

We hope you enjoyed this episode of City Climate Corner. If you like what you're hearing, make sure to subscribe and give us a review. If you're able, become a monthly supporter through Patreon. As always, you can find more information on this topic and resources from each episode's guests on our webpage If you have an idea for the show, send us an email at or find us on Twitter, Instagram, and Facebook.

Larry Kraft  35:26

City Climate Corner is produced by Abby Finis and me, Larry Kraft. Edited by me. Our production assistant is Maggie Morin. Music by…

Abby Finis  35:34

King Gizzard and the Lizard Wizard.

Larry Kraft  35:37

Thanks for listening, and we'll see you next time.