The NAACP has created comprehensive tools that cities can learn from and leverage in service of climate justice. We interview Jacqui Patterson, Senior Director of the NAACP Environmental and Climate Justice program. Having run the program since its inception in 2009, Jacqui shares examples of cities that have used some of their tools as well as an inspiring vision of a climate justice community.
The NAACP has created comprehensive tools that cities can learn from and leverage in service of climate justice. We interview Jacqui Patterson, Senior Director of the NAACP Environmental and Climate Justice program. Having run the program since its inception in 2009, Jacqui shares examples of cities that have used some of their tools as well as an inspiring vision of a climate justice community.
Resources
Abby Finis 00:02
Cities produce more than 60% of global greenhouse gas emissions. Big cities get a lot of attention, but most household emissions in the US actually come from communities outside urban cores, making them critical players in climate mitigation and climate justice. City Climate Corner explores how these small and mid sized cities are tackling climate change and moving toward an equitable and sustainable future. I'm Abby Finis.
Larry Kraft 00:23
And I'm Larry Kraft. We're co hosts for City Climate Corner.
Abby Finis 00:30
Hey Larry.
Larry Kraft 00:31
Hey, Abby.
Abby Finis 00:32
So there's a number of climate action plans that were written maybe 10-15 years ago, maybe longer. And oftentimes, those climate action plans don't really address the idea of environmental justice, of equity. And I think that those cities are looking back at their plans and thinking about different ways to write them, while, other cities are, as they write their climate action plans are trying to think about how to do it the right way and and be more inclusive and have that engagement. Are you seeing that trend as well?
Larry Kraft 01:08
Yeah, absolutely. Even in my city of St. Louis Park, where our Climate Action Plan certainly has equity components to it. Over the past few years, it's become even more of a thing that we think about and how we implement it. So even for those communities that have had some thought into it, I think it's the realization of how much the impacts of climate change fall disproportionately on those that have least caused it. And trying to start implementing it in a way to start addressing those things. I think it's just becoming more prevalent.
Abby Finis 01:49
Yeah, there's a growing number of resources, I think, oftentimes cities are not sure what to do, because it's it's a shift from what they're accustomed to. But there, there's certainly a desire among city staff, among community members to get this right and to do it in the right way. And so it's really great to see that resources are popping up to be able to help with with those cities that want to do that. And that leads us into today's episode, where we speak with Jacqui Patterson of the NAACP about resources that her program has put together to help usher in better climate adaptation planning, and incorporate environmental justice, understand what that means. And I think we have a really great conversation to share with folks today.
Larry Kraft 02:43
Yeah. And what's really interesting to me, as we started looking at these tools, and then talking to her is that contrary to cities that might have just started thinking about this over the past several years, it's obvious that she and the NAACP have been thinking about this for a long time and have some just tremendous insight. So let's do it.
Abby Finis 03:04
Let's do it.
Larry Kraft 03:08
We are here with Jacqui Patterson, who is the Senior Director of the Environmental and Climate Justice program at the NAACP. Welcome, Jacqui.
Jacqui Patterson 03:18
Thank you. It's good to be here with you. Thanks for inviting me.
Larry Kraft 03:21
Can you start by telling us a little bit about yourself and your role at the NAACP?
Jacqui Patterson 03:28
Yes, I am the Senior Director of the Environmental and Climate Justice program at the NAACP and have been so since its founding in 2009. So we just celebrated our 11-year anniversary in October. I came into this work from doing work on international public health, human rights, and gender justice - both internationally and domestically.
Larry Kraft 03:56
Can you also give us a bit more background on the NAACP and its history and how it evolved to add climate change, climate justice as one of its programs?
Jacqui Patterson 04:08
Yeah, sure, as many know how that organization was founded in 1909. So we recently celebrated our 100-year anniversary. The organization historically was founded on this notion around civil rights. And at the time, it was, you know, it was desegregation, it was education, justice, and so forth. Access to common facilities, whether it's water fountains or riding on the bus or all those different things. Over the years, it has evolved to have several focal program areas and certainly education continues to be a foundational focus, as well as health and economic justice. And then more recently, civic engagement has actually been there, you know, since the beginning as well. And then more recently, criminal justice. And then the very youngest program is the Environmental Climate Justice program.
So the Environmental Climate Justice program came about - originally, the president ceo at the time, Ben Jealous, was a part of this group called the commission to engage African Americans on climate change, which was facilitated by the Joint Center on Political and Economic studies. And that group came together as a focal group around what was then the Waxman-Markey bill around comprehensive climate legislation. And there was a hope that the NAACP could bring to that commission, the boots on the ground in terms of the frontline communities, especially when it was clear that the Waxman Markey bill advocates hadn't done enough to really engage the grass roots on that piece of legislation. And so that was kind of how the initial funding that came to the NAACP for this program came about. At the same time, there was a conversation between the NAACP and the National Wildlife Federation. And they did a joint resolution on the differential impact of climate change on African American communities. And that resolution supported the Clean Air Act and its rulemaking. So fast forward, since I came on board, six months after that grant was received. The Waxman-Markey bill in the meantime - it already wasn't successful. So by the time I got on board, I had kind of a blank slate in terms of what to do.
So first couple of years was really a bit of a listening session, talking to folks about what they're experiencing, and then helping to weave a narrative around climate change until we've reached where we are now, with having three strategic objectives of reducing harmful emissions. So kind of anti toxics in turn, including greenhouse gases, advancing energy efficiency and clean energy. Because we know that energy production is one of the top contributors to the greenhouse gas emissions that drive climate change, and then strengthening community resilience in the context of climate adaptation. And so all of that was born out of, in those initial conversations, it was hearing from communities that were on the front lines of oil and gas or coal fired power plants or waste incinerators. And so we knew we really had to work on reducing those harmful emissions both for the sake of the planet, and for the communities that are on the frontlines. We also knew that, we wanted to make sure we were being responsible as we're shifting from an energy economy that pollutes our communities and pollutes the planet, that we do it in a way that's just and that upholds workers rights and workers well-being, as well as communities. And so that's where we have strengthening, advancing energy efficiency and clean energy in the context of climate adaptation with a real economic justice lens. We also knew from Hurricane Katrina, the floods and tornadoes of 2011, all of these different disasters and the shifts in agricultural yields and the food insecurity in our communities, the sea level rise that was already displacing communities, that we needed to really focus on making sure that there's equity and justice in the planning for climate adaptation. So that's where the third objective came about strengthening community resilience in the context of climate adaptation. So that's the evolution in a nutshell.
Larry Kraft 08:27
Wow. So you are the Senior Director of the Environmental and Climate Justice program. Those are terms we hear a lot. But can you break down what those mean to you? What environmental justice and climate justice mean?
Jacqui Patterson 08:41
Yeah, sure. Environmental Justice, we know, traditionally, is the unequal distribution of benefits and burdens around the environment. And so when we talk about environmental justice communities, it's communities that are on the front lines of the smokestacks of the pipelines of the various polluting facilities and industries. And also we all we know that these are the communities that are often burdened not only by environmental injustice, but other types of societal injustice, which means that we don't even have the same access to the wild spaces, the National Parks and so forth, whether it's because of their placement or because of we don't even have the time and luxury to enjoy the great outdoors, as we're just trying to survive in a society that has so many systemic inequities. So this is where we see this environmental justice. And climate justice similarly refers to the fact that we are on the front lines of the very same polluting facilities that are emitting the greenhouse gas emissions that drive climate change, we're the least responsible for the greenhouse gas emissions drive climate change, and also most impacted by how climate change is affecting the earth. So as I said before, the most impacted by the disasters because of those pre-existing social and economic vulnerabilities and political vulnerabilities. Most impacted by the sea level rise because of existing housing insecurity, land, lack of access, and ownership of land and so forth. And also most impacted by the shifts in agricultural yields. Because already before we start to see these impacts of shifting agricultural use, 26% of African American households are food insecure. And that goes back to the vestiges of you know, of a post-slavery context. And the red=lining and all the systemic challenges that have happened since that separates us from those critical resources.
Abby Finis 10:48
One thing that struck me in looking through some of your work and talks is not only are these frontline communities most negatively burdened by these harms, but they're also least likely to benefit from the energy system as well, I think you showed one video of a family living outside of just outside of power plant, a coal plant, and they had a cooler on their porch because they didn't have electricity. And so they're bearing the pollution and not benefiting from that generation. People just maybe aren't aware of all of these issues. And so I really appreciate you bringing that to the forefront and making it visible.
Jacqui Patterson 11:29
Yeah, no, definitely. Thank you. And yes, so as you say, we put out a report called Lights Out in the Cold, Reforming Utility Shut-off Policies as a Human Rights Matter. Because as you say, that family is on Navajo land in the Four Corners region, where even though they're surrounded by three coal fired power plants within kind of polluting range of their lands, 70% of the people on those lands don't have electricity. And so though the electricity that's generated by those coal fired power plants, goes to power Phoenix, Las Vegas at that time, Los Angeles, although I think Los Angeles now weaning from coal. That very family was suffering from the asthma from the COPD, and the one family member was pregnant in that same image, and they were concerned about the endocrine disruptors that they know, and the birth impacts that come from exposure to these toxins. And then our Lights Out in the Cold report really talks about the folks who have their electricity shut off for non-payment, and how it's a lot of those same communities that are on the frontlines of the pollution. Finally, even when we talk about access to electricity, there's also the access to the jobs in the energy sector, because currently, right now, jobs and other economic benefits. The American Association of Blacks in Energy put out a report that said only 1.1% of the jobs in the energy sector are held by African Americans. And that less than .01 percent of the revenue from the energy sector goes to African American households. And so again, more likely, like exponentially more likely to experience the burdens, but exponentially less likely to experience the benefits.
Abby Finis 13:15
Right. And that just underscores the critical importance as cities are increasing the amount of solar in their communities who's who gets access to that and ensuring that frontline communities are first in line to get access to that clean energy. So all of this information is informing a wealth of resources that you've put together on environmental justice, energy issues, and they're not necessarily designed to be targeted to cities, but they certainly have elements that are very applicable to cities. And I was looking through a couple of them, the climate justice toolkit and our communities, our power toolkit. Can you just highlight some of the key themes and how these toolkits can be adapted for city work?
Jacqui Patterson 14:03
So our overarching aim, and all that we're doing is rooted in the just transition framework, which is shifting our society from one that is rooted around domination, exploitation extraction, to one that is rooted in principles and practices around carrying around cooperation around regeneration, and deep democracy. And so the way we've put together these toolkits, follows that same kind of progression and so, particularly around cooperation and deep democracy, instead of having an energy system that is not providing the benefits and definitely disproportionately heaping the burdens. How that's been allowed to perpetuate is because of the profit margins and the amount of power that directly corresponds with that level of profit. So we have fossil fuel companies that are spending billions of dollars on the elections, billions of dollars on lobbying against clean air, against clean energy, and even against energy efficiency. And so when we talk about democracy, one of the things and when we talk about cooperation, and we talk about caring, and regeneration, we are putting forward in our our communities, our powers and our power to the people toolkit, the ways that we can have regenerative design in our buildings so that we're not using so much energy in the first place, and that our buildings kind of have a biomimicry, they, they mirror the ways that our system our systems are designed. And they act in harmony with our Earth systems. And so through our centering equity in the sustainable building sector initiative, we're working with folks to develop buildings where, for example, the shades go up in the daytime, or they have, you know, ambient heating in the flooring and so forth. And we're working with communities like Louisville, Kentucky, on where our branches is, is changing their headquarters to be in this kind of Living Building, design and regenerative design, and then also working with the municipality around how they can make this a universal in their city, what kind of building codes what kind of municipal bonds, what are the ways that both the regulations and the finance can help to support regenerative design in their buildings. In the our community, our power toolkit, we also talk about ways that communities can start to come together and work with their municipalities around doing micro grids so that we're shifting away from fossil fuel based energy production, and moving towards community ownership so that we don't have profits going to entities that are then using it to push back on our democracy.
We are working with communities on developing a local food policy platform so that municipal policies are actually supporting local food movements, and certainly removing barriers to local food movement so that we move away from having communities that don't have access to healthy and nutritious foods. to their detriment. We know with COVID-19 that the lack of access to nutritious foods, that exacerbated the very pre existing conditions like diabetes, and so forth heart disease, that make people more vulnerable to COVID-19. And so working on local food systems to ensure that there is food security for communities that traditionally haven't had it is another municipal level projects that we're working on. Also, in that report, we talk about the water systems, we know that unfortunately, with some municipalities and others having challenges around water quality and access, that we've had circumstances where the privatization of water has been a lure that some folks have been considering. And so in the Our Power toolkit, we talk about ways that people can make sure that water systems continue to be held by municipalities, ways they can finance that, as well as how communities can be involved in decision making around their water water systems.
Abby Finis 18:19
I noticed in the Our Communities Our Power tool kit, call out that said the anatomy of a flood climate adaptation plan. And I really like language around that. And it kind of had a list of bullet points and what it was getting at as you need to have equity be part of your plan, and you need to have inclusion. Can you go over what the elements of a climate adaptation plan should be if it's going to be grounded in equity?
Jacqui Patterson 18:48
Yeah. Thank you. So first and foremost, it's as much the process that then leads to the content. So making sure that it is community driven and participatory in its formation is going to result in something that works for the community. So we work a lot with a movement strategy center, with its community driven planning, and we definitely even our committees, our power The processes for engaging communities was a lot based on the community driven resilience planning, that our that our movement we've done together with the movement strategy center, and many other practitioners in this space. So first and foremost is making sure that the table is big, and that everyone has the ability to sit at the table. And everybody's heard when they're sitting at the table. So multi stakeholder, good inclusive processes, good decision making are all kind of key pillars of a solid plan. And then secondly, in terms of the content that it needs to have everything from recognizing that climate planning isn't this myopic notion of just things that are directly related to what people traditionally think of as climate, the climate planning, climate action planning is everything from getting money out of politics, so that we have to democracy that a climate action planning includes making sure that there are livelihoods for everyone in the community, because we know that having that financial well being is critical to resilience, building action planning includes ways that we can support healing justice at the community level, the ways that we can support communities working in cooperative structures is critical, because that's all those social connections are critical to our ability to weather the storm.
We're making sure that we are including groups that are often marginalized and not centered in our planning processes. So making sure that we're including people with us with special health needs or who are differently abled. And often even there, we have kind of a low bar, like the idea is like, Alright, we're gonna include people who are differently abled around differently abled things, you know, so it's like, we're gonna ask people about, you know, ADA access, and so forth. And that recognizing that, yeah, that that everybody should be included to give input on the whole range. And we should make sure that people are at the table for that. Similarly, making sure that we have in our plan, explicit plans around people who are formerly incarcerated, and people who are currently incarcerated. The conditions of our prisons are just horrendous in some places. Some of them are built on Superfund sites. And also we have disaster planning, we have to make sure that we are thinking just as much about people who are in these circumstances. But we know after Hurricane Katrina, that people who were incarcerated in the local county jails and municipal jail were just abandoned for days when that disaster struck. And so how do we make sure that every single person in the community is a part of the planning and is held as as being valuable in the plans. So those are just a few examples.
Abby Finis 22:21
That connects, I think, to what we're seeing here, and we're recording this in the middle of April, and Larry and I are in the Minneapolis area. And just two days ago, Dante right was killed by Brooklyn center police department in the midst of the Derrick Chauvin trial. And I think that oftentimes, we sidestep racial issues and police brutality when talking about climate change and climate planning. But you really create a link here, I think, to how this is a civil rights issue, right? And these things are connected. And maybe you die at the hands of the police. Or maybe you die, as you say, by 1000 cuts of, of pollution. Can you talk about that a little bit and how you see that link?
Jacqui Patterson 23:11
Sadly, it really comes down to and starts with people being dehumanized by a system from the time that African Americans came to this country in the halls of ships as commodities. You know, the the notion was that we were just there to as enslaved labor not even seen as people but as companies the burden really, and that we saw that then, and, as we saw, to the other image of George Floyd, you know, pinned to the ground under someone's knee and that same deal, minimization less than human, not worthy of humane treatment. And not caring that people are being polluted on, that people have communities that are called cancer alleys, that they have to have now clinics for a uranium mine workers, largely indigenous folks, because they're literally the fact that is institutionalized is that's an except that they have clinics devoted to uranium mine workers is it's just a, you know, an accepted aspect of the work that people are going to be poisoned by button doing work every day. Like these are the kinds of things that the this kind of false notion that this country was founded on, you know, freedom, religious freedom and liberty and so forth, when really, the practices upon which the founding fathers was extraction, exploitation, domination and murder. And so and that, that continues on, it's been institutionalized.
So we see how that kind of all plays together in terms of whether people are being shot down the streets or people are being, as we say, just poisoned every day because their lives are less valued or not even considered to be lives. And you know, the the memes that are coming up now around living while black while we're someone can't just be in their dorm room napping, they have to have the police call them they can't just be at a Starbucks drink drinking coffee, they have to have the police caught on they can be just checking out of Airbnb, like everybody else they have to have the police called on them. And there was an image that I use for Hurricane Katrina, it was Associated Press, same situation, same day, where they showed a picture of two white people. And it says you know, two residents wade through chest deep flood waters after finding bread and soda in the grocery store. And then one of an African American young man, pictured, a young man walks through chest deep flood waters after looting a grocery store. And so literally, they're both doing the exact same thing carrying groceries in floodwaters. One group is concerned to be just like out there trying to survive doing the best they can, you know, and finding what they can, but then when it's a black guy, he's looting. He's a criminal. And so therefore, similarly, when you have the families on the Danziger bridge, trying to get back in a town to like find food, to find relatives, then as opposed to seeing them as folks trying to survive, trying to do what they need to do, people call the police on them, and suspecting them of looting. And so these families, unarmed families, were shot dead by the police - state sponsored violence just because of a perception, just because they were black, that they had to be up to no good.
So we see the link of like, less than human bad motives, no matter what, you know, tried and convicted of something that people aren't doing, and then a death sentence. And that's a pattern that we see in our society. And so the fact that people are allowed to have that people making profits, the utility company heads, making profits, on average, $9.8 million of compensation for the CEO alone, and millions and billions of dollars for the energy company profits in general. And then we have people having their electricity turned off, or like a couple of $60 bills that were missed, then using candles to light their home and burning them down and literally, again, paying the price of poverty with their lives. So it's this criminalization of poverty as well. And disproportionately for people of color. So this is why we see this kind of connection between state sponsored violence, criminalization, and, and the lack of regard for human life of black and brown people.
Larry Kraft 28:14
That's really powerful. Jackie, maybe we could turn to you examples you've seen of communities that effectively use some of your tools and in climate action and adaptation, and as you talked about to combat these environmental injustices and civil rights issues.
Jacqui Patterson 28:34
Yeah, absolutely. I haven’t been traveling with COVID-19, but I came down to Gulfport, Mississippi, where when we first started doing this work, we connected with Gulfport, and at that point, the branch hadn't been doing work on environmental issues. And we started working with them. And using not only using some of the things that are in the toolkits, but also kind of learning while doing and then those are the examples that ended up being in the toolkit, you know, so it’s that kind of dual thing. And so we work with them. And over the years, they've done everything from had a successful campaign to stop their coal plant from burning coal, they've started a local food network where they had a series of community gardens, and they got a master gardener, who then had apprentices that then are working in the garden. And so they're addressing their food insecurity issues there, they have done multiple trainings with first responders on equity, and emergency management. And so they've seen a shift in how the response systems are set up for emergency management. They've done extensive mutual aid in the context of COVID-19, in terms of providing everything from peepee, to food, and so forth to communities and really, and so when I came down here, it was because we're initiating and awarding the first climate smart household award for the person with whom we've worked the most on the the the Gulf port, climate action planning.
And that's Kathy Eglin. And she has embodied what we feel like is needed to be a climate smart household, which is not, which is both like doing energy efficiency retrofits and solar, having a fortified roof for the disasters, and growing her own food in her backyard, as well as being a part of the community garden. Also the fact that she has been a pillar of community cooperation, and mutual aid and, and love really, and so these are the types of things that we need to really support resilience at the community level, not only the infrastructure, work, but also the social structure, the social threads, and tapestry, and so that the her household embodies that and the ways that she has been a community activists in the way that she's been a community mother, and the way that she has been a healer in her community. And that's kind of model that we want to uplift because this is why you saw the Our Communities Our Power toolkit, it's like 600 pages long, because we're going to need to change all of our systems, and really come back to how we should be together as people
Larry Kraft 31:28
I was certainly struck by how comprehensive the toolkit is. But I also don't want to scare people off because of the size. Because it's broken up into very usable and understandable chunks. Right. So you can, it seems like a kit that depending on where you are as a city or as a community, what you most need, you can pluck that part out and use it, is that kind of how it's intended to be used?
Jacqui Patterson 31:54
Absolutely. And in fact, we have taken it and like separated the modules. I think it's on our website somewhere where you could actually just look at one module versus the whole thing in its entirety. So yeah, the idea is that people can see what works for them.
Larry Kraft 32:10
And if the city wants to work on something like this, what's the best approach? Is it contacting the local NAACP office there and working together? How does that work?
Jacqui Patterson 32:22
Yes, definitely. Contacting local NAACP is definitely the way to go.
Larry Kraft 32:29
Alright, maybe we could start bringing this to a close, by just asking you for a vision of what does a climate justice community look like to you?
Jacqui Patterson 32:38
Yeah, thank you. It is a community that really affirms and values and holds every last member of that community essential to the community wellness, that we're all in the same river, and we all need to support each other in that river. That first and foremost, and then it's a community that also embraces abundance, because we know that the Earth was divinely designed to be regenerative and to, to produce all that we need. And so, really embracing that and being in harmony with the earth and all of it. riches there. And, and so like, making sure that we are, as opposed to, you know, looking to techno fixes or geoengineering, that we actually recognize that the earth is jet could generate all of the the food that we need that, that if we are that if we're responsible with our water resources, we can have the water that we need. And so just divided, designing each of our systems in that way that's in harmony, that the city is always thinking of ways to recover and reuse when it comes to waste. That our community is recognizing that a rising tide does not lift all boats, that we have to make sure that our systems that everyone is at the table for planning, so that you know the folks who are - tend to be marginalized, that there are no longer any margin. So there's just us, and us includes everyone. So, the vision is of a community where the bar has been raised from people just barely surviving, but people are really thriving, and they see how we depend on each other and that we embrace that interdependence. And that we have communities that are anchored by by cooperation. And by participation in the bigger we, as we say, so that's what I would see if I climate justice community.
Larry Kraft 34:43
Thank you. I want to live there.
Abby Finis 34:49
Yeah. Thank you. We really appreciate you sharing with us today.
Larry Kraft 34:54
All right. So what are your takeaways from this interview?
Abby Finis 34:58
Well, that was a really powerful interview with Jackie, and I just appreciate the breadth of the conversation that she brought. And one of the pieces that really sticks with me is making that connection to civil rights and valuing people's lives. And it's just, it's so basic and fundamental. And it's something that we fail to do time and time again, and so when thinking about environmental justice, when thinking about civil rights, and what kind of community you want to live in, you want to live in a community where people are not afraid just to live in the community, they're not afraid to visit that community, based on the color of their skin and what they might face. So I just really appreciated her tying that together, and helping to create a vision where we are in harmony versus always in conflict. And so that's really, what sat with me the most.
Larry Kraft 36:09
Yeah, yeah, her emphasis on a community of love, of abundance. For some that don't maybe hear the words environmental justice and climate justice and don't understand what they mean, she does a great job of explaining it in and painting, just a beautiful vision for what we should be aiming for.
Abby Finis 36:28
Yeah, and looking at that, from the importance of the social cohesion aspect. And thinking about the infrastructure plan that's out there right now, I think we talked about this on a previous episode, but it defines infrastructure broadens the definition of infrastructure to include some of those social and community support pieces, which is so critical and shouldn't be overlooked by cities that are looking to do this work.
Larry Kraft 36:54
Yeah. She said one thing, when we were asking, What does a climate justice community look like? Or how do you do this, and she made a point of: process leads to content. Include the community, which, you know, it's not a rocket science kind of a thing. But it's important, right. And I also found, in looking at this tool, that they start out with three, clear, simple, very compelling goals of reducing harmful emissions, advancing energy efficiency and clean energy, and strengthening community resilience. And from those simple goals, which I think we would all kind of agree on, they develop this very logical and comprehensive approach to, to how you can get there, for a city, or for really, for any community.
Abby Finis 37:45
Exactly. And there, we just covered a couple of the resources that are on their website, but there's a lot of resources. There's a lot of really good content on the website, and we'll be sharing that in the link to this episode. But just go out there. Read these episodes. To watch some of these webinars, get in touch with your local NAACP chapter and start working on building community and working toward that social cohesion and climate vision.
Abby Finis 38:12
We hope you enjoyed this episode of City Climate Corner. If you like what you're hearing, make sure to subscribe and give us a review. If you're able, become a monthly supporter through Patreon. As always, you can find more information on this topic and resources from each episode's guests on our webpage cityclimatecorner.com. If you have an idea for the show, send us an email at cityclimatecorner@gmail.com or find us on Twitter, Instagram, and Facebook.
Larry Kraft 38:35
City Climate is produced by Abby Finis and me, Larry Kraft, edited by me. Music by ...
Abby Finis 38:41
King Gizzard and the Lizard Wizard.
Larry Kraft 38:43
Thanks for listening and we'll see you next time.